Atomic Blonde (2017)
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Transcript
Steph (00:00)
if I could just take like the thinnest razor and just shave like seven to ten minutes off the movie and tighten it up a little bit. I think that's when I would love it. It just feels like there was. ⁓
Netta (00:20)
to Popcorn Moms, the podcast for parents who love their kids most, but loved movies first. We're your cohost, Netta.
Steph (00:27)
and Stephanie, two movie lovers turned moms. Join us as we reconnect with the things that made us whole outside of parenthood, namely watching movies. Today's movie is Atomic Blonde, a 2017 American action thriller film directed by David Leach. We'll guess is how it's pronounced. Based on the 2012 graphic novel, The Coldest City by Anthony Johnson and Sam Hart. The film stars Charlize Theron, James McAvoy and John Goodman.
The story revolves around a British spy who has to find a list of covert agents that is being smuggled into the West on the eve of the collapse of the Berlin Wall in 1989. This was Netta's pick. So why did you choose this movie, Netta?
Netta (01:06)
Okay. So, okay. So at the end of our last conversation about Black Bag, it was very clear we wanted a spy thriller that would actually like scratch the itch of a spy thriller. Blonde was like in the back of my mind, but I wanted to see what else there was.
Steph (01:06)
Okay, okay, she says
Yes.
Yes. Be a spy thriller. Yeah.
Mmm.
Netta (01:28)
So I just did like a Google search, like, you know, best spy thrillers. And it was two categories of movies. You had your like action spy movies, which were like 90 % franchises. James Bond, Mission Impossible, Jack Reacher, that kind of thing. And then you had, on the other hand, quiet, tense.
Steph (01:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Netta (01:52)
type of spy thriller, know, British like mind games, 90 % of them based on exactly like they're almost all based on John LeCoury books.
Steph (01:55)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Very tongue-in-cheek. Mm-hmm.
No! ⁓
Netta (02:06)
I just remembered Atomic Blonde as being kind of a mix of these two. Where it had who is Satchel? who can you trust and what's real and blah, blah. But also some very serious action as well. So I decided to go for Atomic Blonde.
Steph (02:11)
⁓ yeah, cool.
Hmm
Yes. Yes.
Netta (02:25)
and I'm curious what you thought of it.
Steph (02:25)
Great choice. No,
I was gonna ask, and what did you think of your choice?
Netta (02:29)
No, no, no, no, you do this every time
you make me answer first. What did what did you think?
Steph (02:33)
Cause you chose!
Just for the record, neither of us had seen it before, right? I hadn't. you had! ⁓ plot twist. Plot twist.
Netta (02:38)
I had, had. Yes. But tell me what you thought.
Steph (02:43)
have many thoughts. If the question is, did I like it? Yes. Did I love it? No.
Netta (02:50)
Did it scratch the itch? Did it satisfy your want of watching a spy thriller? Okay. Okay.
Steph (02:57)
Somewhat. Seven out of ten.
On the spy thriller Scratch. I think. And I Yes, I have many many thoughts about why. I've been doing a lot of thinking since I watched it. I watched it two days ago. I've been doing a lot of thinking and I feel like I can actually articulate why I feel that way. But I'd like to hear your views.
Netta (03:01)
Okay.
Okay.
was more or less what I remembered it being. I didn't remember like every twist and turn of it, but I remembered all the big plot points. remember it like spoiler alert here, but like I remembered that she actually turns out to be working for the Americans. and yeah, I really enjoyed it. I felt like it was a lot of candy.
Steph (03:19)
Mm.
Big,
Spoiler alert! ⁓ god. Yes.
Netta (03:38)
like a lot of like things to satisfy on the kind of surface level. don't feel like it was very heavy or it didn't go very in depth on like theme or whatever, but there was so much to enjoy on the surface of it
Steph (03:39)
Mmm, it was,
Mmm.
Netta (03:55)
I thought it was.
very fun and very cool and very, yeah, it was like candy, but in like this really great way.
Steph (03:57)
It is very fun.
I love that you described it like that. So how I feel about this is there's so many things I loved about it, but on the whole, I can't say that I loved it as a whole. And so for me, it checks a lot of excellent boxes. Like very early on, it's super stylized. We love that.
Then I saw, yeah, it's based on a graphic novel. That's why. Love it. It's all blues and with the paint. Oh, when you say it reminds me Candy, I picture her hotel room where it's all blue lit with the pink. Oh my God, I love it.
Netta (04:30)
Yes.
I'm sorry, I have to interrupt that. Have you heard of this term of bisexual lighting?
Steph (04:35)
Yeah!
No.
Netta (04:38)
the bi colors are blue, pink and purple. first of all, it's just a really great color combo. And it shows up in movie lighting quite a bit. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with bisexuality in the movie, even though here,
Steph (04:44)
Yeah.
Mmmmm cool!
Mm-hmm.
Netta (04:54)
you know, there is some of that going on. ⁓
Steph (04:54)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
Netta (04:57)
But just in general, I just think like some of the color schemes in this movie are just amazing, so beautiful. And so the bisexual lighting is very strong in this movie, including in the hotel room and all of that. But yes, go on, go on.
Steph (05:00)
so good. Yeah. So describe it as candies.
In this movie, we're here for it. Yes. Yes.
OK, so check the box strong stylized nature. I want to come back to it, but check the box on music. 100 percent. We definitely need to talk about that in a minute. ⁓ Actors acting. Check that box. This is great. Fun spy thriller. Check that box
Netta (05:20)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Steph (05:30)
All of these boxes are checked. And then when you put it together, I'm like, OK, like, though? Like, why am I not in love with this? And I feel like if I could just take the thinnest razor and just shave seven to ten minutes off the movie and tighten it up a little bit. I think that's when I would love it. you watch a movie, we've watched them before and it's like, my God, that was tight
The story is tight. is so simple that it it hits you over the face. And then the things that make it greater, like the acting, the music, the style. It's funny you say that it was very service level and simple because I feel like at times they were trying to be deeper and have these messages around like nobody's a good guy and all the sides are James McAvoy has that monologue where he's staring into the camera for a while at the end.
say the first half. In love, it reminded me of a run, Lola run music video, video game, very fun, very stylized. And the second half, I think, is when it just started Not fall apart by any means, but just kind of
drag a little bit.
So the ending revealed, we've already spoiler of it. The ending is revealed that she's this triple agent. three times in my life, maybe I've had to Google like, wait, what happened? tons of movies that you Google like, what does this mean? But it's fun. You're supposed to Google. What does it mean?
Then there's movies that you watch that there's some weird convoluted thing or the big reveal isn't as big or it's kind of weird. And it's like, wait, what? I was left at the end being like, wait, what? And I hated that. I hated that I was confused and I Googled it and read about it so I could be prepared for this conversation. So maybe it's a me thing, I don't think I'm terribly daft when it comes to movies
Netta (07:00)
Mm.
No.
Steph (07:08)
And maybe I
was right, I was reading and a bunch of people were saying if you watch it a second time, there's hints throughout. And I'm like, is there? Yeah, I just think it could have been written tighter. I loved everything else, though, a lot.
Netta (07:21)
can see what you're saying in terms of like, it doesn't have that kind of like, tightness, which is like, that's the thing. feel like, I mean, we talk about movies that are tight quite a bit. Like, I feel like this comes up. It sounds so bad.
Steph (07:27)
Right? And it doesn't need to be, but...
Mm hmm. Yeah, I know. And I'm sitting here trying to think of like tight.
Netta (07:40)
god, I feel like this word is starting to sound like the word moist to me.
I think the thing with this movie is, and now I'm trying not to say it, even though it's the word that I need to say, so I'm just gonna say it. I think that yeah, this movie is not tight. It as much as like a spy thriller could be
Steph (07:50)
yes! Say it!
It's not.
Yeah.
Netta (08:01)
because at the end there is this twist and it needs to leave room for that. the whole format of this film is that, mission has ended and she is being interviewed by her MI6 handlers.
Steph (08:05)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yes.
Netta (08:15)
the movie mostly takes place in the mission, but then it jumps back to this interview that she's giving. the interview ends and the tape turns off, we have to be at a point where we can understand how she could
herself be a double agent that is a British spy that is actually working for the Russians, but have framed James McAvoy as the double agent. So there has to be both the narrative of her being the double agent and the narrative of him being a double agent
Steph (08:39)
Change that, right? Mm-hmm.
Netta (08:46)
But then there also has to be in all that, the fact that she's actually a triple agent working for the Americans. there has to be enough there that all three make sense.
Steph (08:51)
Yeah.
You know what? I think you just articulated it beautifully as you always do. For me, it didn't lean light enough for you to be like, it doesn't matter. That was great. I think it really tried to do this. And it just in my view, it didn't do all three things. the American thing was like I had to Google it like, wait, what? And then I think.
There was no way that I believed that she was the double agent. halfway through, was like, ⁓ maybe she is, that would be thrilling. But the way she was being in this, was like, and that could just, and maybe this is how they played it. it started to be maybe more obvious that he was because he had kind of gone rogue. they didn't weave that story well enough. All three narratives. Where about you? Like, do you think?
Netta (09:35)
Mm.
I think it's interesting that you say that part way through you're like, maybe she's the double agent and that could be really interesting. But then you see her up close, you're in her perspective, you stay with her very closely throughout and you can see
Steph (09:51)
Yeah.
Netta (09:53)
This is not the story of a double agent. if this is her story, this is not the story of a double agent.
Steph (09:53)
No way. No. No.
Netta (09:58)
At the same time,
you see how he could frame her as such. I don't know.
Steph (10:01)
Mm.
Netta (10:04)
I guess just the fact that like, to me, these three things are all plausible. That he's a double agent, that she's a double agent, that she's a triple agent. I guess maybe it's one of those things where if you were to look at it more closely and examine all the details and all the evidence, it would be clear that it doesn't really.
Steph (10:21)
Yeah, that's what I wondered too.
Netta (10:24)
hold up and like her being a triple agent, there's not really a ton of stuff there to support that. But I think just going along with the story, at every turn where you are asked to believe that he's a double agent or where you're asked to believe that she's a double agent setting this guy up. And then at the end where you're asked to believe that she's a triple agent,
I don't know, I guess I didn't have any trouble saying like, okay, yeah. Yeah, okay, sure. I think maybe because the action was so propelling that I just kind of went along with it. And that actually maybe takes me to the thing about this movie that I think did work really well for me and maybe didn't for you.
Steph (10:50)
Mm, okay, yeah.
Mmm. You were there for it.
Netta (11:06)
which was the pacing.
Steph (11:08)
Go on because I was just going to say something about pacing based on your comments. So what are you going to say?
Netta (11:14)
I thought it was really good. I thought it was like a very well-paced movie. I think the way that they used the interview to interrupt some of the actions, sometimes in ways that were funny, sometimes in ways that kind of kept the mystery going, sometimes in ways that were revealing. it was obviously very purposeful when that happened it helped kind of break things up and
Steph (11:26)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Netta (11:37)
give a kind of a pace. So in the lead up to the climactic sequence where they're trying to get the spyglass, like the asset, the guy out of East Berlin and smuggled him into the West, leading up to that, the interruptions from the interview increases.
Steph (11:46)
Hmm
Netta (11:57)
We go back to the interview more often and then it stops for that full action sequence. the buildup and then that scene and then the come down from it, I think it just, worked very well for me.
Steph (11:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. And then, yeah.
when you say like maybe I had a problem with the pacing, I don't. So I'll say this, when you said the movie kept moving and so you didn't really notice, that's how I feel about the first half. first good solid chunk. I feel like all of my notes from that half of the movie, they're so positive, they're so excited. it's always moving, the music is always there, it's so fun
it keeps you really gripped and it is going. it's like going down this tight, tight alley and it's so good. And then it just kind of expands a bit, but like I was less along for how it was then going. Maybe I want to talk about the format of it going back and forth from the interviews because I don't know.
I'm wondering if that's something I mentally stuck on. did I like that or not? I don't know. Was it working for me or not? I thought so, but now looking back, I don't know.
Netta (13:07)
maybe that added a kind of a layer that feels unnecessary or extra.
Steph (13:11)
Extra. Yeah, like
When you're talking about there's three things that need to be plausible. I Feel like the interviews for me Sometimes I think that's a tool that movies use that's very exciting and interesting
I don't think it came across to me that way in this movie.
Netta (13:27)
I think a lot of times those, that format is used to show the difference between what happened and how it's being recounted. And the fact is that there isn't really any difference for most of it.
Steph (13:37)
Mm-hmm, and how it's being recounted.
I know. Yeah.
Yeah, maybe that's it.
Netta (13:47)
So there's
not necessarily a lot that's like brought to light through those interviews per se. there are I think a couple moments that are revealing, but I think it might just be one or two. Whereas I think it's used in this movie, I think it's used to show the relationship between her and.
Steph (13:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Netta (14:12)
her handlers, so her and the kind of larger intelligence establishment and her superiors. I think it's meant to show her character, even though I think we get all of that from the main action.
Steph (14:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. ⁓
Netta (14:26)
And I think, again, I think it is used mainly as a pacing device,
Steph (14:30)
Yeah.
maybe it's just a set up thing. it's kind of alluded to that, she's in the hot seat. She's being debriefed. for me, maybe it would have been more exciting or interesting to have it spliced the way it is if we knew maybe from the beginning,
Netta (14:40)
Thank
Steph (14:48)
she has to get out of this somehow. I think if we knew the stakes at the beginning, it would be more exciting, because at the end, when it's revealed that she's a triple agent, it's like, okay, cool. you were already kind of let off the hook. we just saw that in the interview that they said, like, forget it, whatever. you did that job, but now this and it... Like, it just...
Netta (14:50)
Yes, yes.
Steph (15:07)
That ending was less impactful. But if we know from the beginning the stakes, that she's in the hot seat, she's going down for this and she has to figure out a way through it. I think that would be more exciting to then have the reveal. You know what I mean? Like that John Goodman the whole time, was in the room.
Netta (15:22)
Thank
I feel you on this. like, what is at stake in that interrogation or in that debrief?
Steph (15:28)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know.
Netta (15:33)
Like, or even
a sense that they're coming into this suspecting her of being satchel.
Steph (15:38)
Yes,
something. Yeah.
Netta (15:40)
like
that, which is not set up.
Steph (15:42)
No, I'd like I think that's what they kind of allude to, but they don't set it up well enough I didn't have any. skin in the game, to care, not not to care, just to be like, what are they trying to do here and why does it matter? And then at the end, when they're kind of like, OK, well, I guess we won't get any answers. That's fine, then.
But then you see her then go to the Russia. just seems like that's all for not that, because I thought the point of this was for her to get out of it. OK, and she just got out of. OK, so why is this still happening?
Netta (16:08)
It's true, you kind of start out knowing that she comes out of the mission alive and she goes into a debrief where it feels like what's in question is, did she handle it well? Did she make the right decisions? Not that anybody there suspects her of being a double agent.
Steph (16:12)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
it'd be more exciting if she's going to be thrown in a cell for the rest of her life. She's going to be handed over to the Russians and be extradited to a marriage like, oh, I don't know. And then I found myself wanting to like it's it's hard sometimes. like a twist or to the stakes if you don't even realize it's an option a triple agent is does that happen in life?
Netta (16:36)
Yeah.
⁓ I feel like it happened in Alias.
Steph (16:46)
Seems.
Netta (16:48)
Is that not the same thing?
Steph (16:48)
It's just,
It just seems like like, how would she be hired? the vetting system for that, like MI6, what are you doing?
Netta (16:57)
I guess one of the things that this movie does kind of allude to though, in a very broad strokes, the differences, let's say between the British and the American intelligence services. And basically the Americans come out on top as usual.
Steph (17:08)
Mmm, yeah.
Yes.
Yes. Is that the message here? ⁓
Netta (17:16)
But even, yeah, that's what it, this is just about
saying, yeah, this is just about taunting the British. This is just about taunting the British. No, I think that one of the moments that I appreciated was when John Goodman, the American CIA handler.
Steph (17:22)
America!
Netta (17:32)
is telling Charlize Theron to hurry up, find this list this list reveals all the details of all of these spies. And he refers to them as, you know, good hardworking folks. just such an American thing to say. Like you would never hear the British characters say, refer to the spies as good hardworking folks.
Steph (17:36)
Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah.
Good hardworking folks? No.
Netta (17:53)
So I think they
Steph (17:53)
It's true.
Netta (17:54)
do lean into the kind of differences in a way that's not like, they're not hitting you over the head with it, which I appreciate. But yeah, I think that's definitely one of the undercurrents is these differences between US and UK intelligence services.
Steph (18:01)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. I guess that's fair. It's not something I necessarily don't and I'm sitting here thinking Why was he even in the room? Don't give me I can't even remember why they like why was he even there?
Netta (18:18)
Yeah, that's not really, yeah.
I don't remember. I don't know.
Steph (18:23)
You're like, I don't know
Netta (18:26)
Yeah. I will.
Steph (18:26)
It'd
be interesting, a lot of these graphic novel or novels adapted to movies, things always get cut out, right? It'd be interesting to like see the source material I would hedge my bets that it's more fleshed out.
Netta (18:41)
just on this note of it being based on a graphic novel, I feel like movies based on graphic novels, many of them have this look, this kind of comic book look to the set, the production design, whatever it is. And I was kind of sitting there, because I think especially in that opening,
Steph (18:51)
yes. Yeah, totally.
Mm-hmm.
Netta (19:00)
the opening sequence where, the spy who has this list is being hunted down. It's kind of a prologue, especially there. just, it is that comic book look. It reminded me of Watchmen, the movie adaptation of Watchmen. what is this look? what's going on here that it looks like this? I think some of it is like a color.
Steph (19:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Netta (19:21)
where it all kind of has a tent, but some of it is also that it looks a little bit like a set. it doesn't look like it's supposed to be a real place, even though I think they might've even shot on location, I'm not sure.
Steph (19:36)
Even though they shot it in real place, it's not supposed to be real place.
Netta (19:37)
Yeah, it was
almost supposed to look like background and foreground. supposed to be able to visually make that distinction somehow.
Steph (19:42)
it's like, yeah. So.
reminded me of Sin City. I had the same like I wrote. ⁓ that should be one we should watch sometime. has that same like pop and other movies like this. You're right. that I can think about that have been adapted from graphic novels. There's a pop and I don't know how they do it. And I think that's graphic novels are they're stylized in a way.
Netta (19:48)
Mmm.
Steph (20:05)
coloring, the way the foreground and background interplay with each other, and color and music and all these things are used. it makes it feel more alive in a way. I want to say bubbly, it's not bubbly. It's rounded, very like juicy.
Netta (20:19)
Hmm.
was gonna say it almost feels a little bit flat But somehow both. what I was saying about the background and foreground. It's like you're meant to feel like the buildings are only a facade. Like there's not really any background. It's just like a paper cutout.
Steph (20:25)
opposite of what I was saying. Great.
Mmm.
Yeah, it's like screen grabs. Like everything is like screen grabs.
Netta (20:43)
of a
Mm hmm. Yes. but it also pops, you're saying about it feeling bubbly.
Steph (20:49)
know.
Netta (20:51)
it feels at least a little bit like cardboard cutouts.
Steph (20:54)
Interesting. Weird. Because I was going to say like alive. It feels so alive. No, pass. Cardboard cutouts. feels like cardboard cutouts. I think. No, I know what mean. to me, it feels like it's a still frame the characters popping out from the background. Yes. it just feels like those 3D books. when you open them up, that's what they feel like. That's what this movie feels like. Yeah. Yeah.
Netta (20:56)
Yeah.
Yes, Yes. yes, yes. Yes. Exactly. Yes.
have these different stages almost or these different arenas where things are happening and a lot is happening. It's very intricate, it's totally 3D, it's totally whatever, but then you flip the page and gone and something else is happening in your face. I don't know.
Steph (21:23)
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm. Yes, I was gonna say
I feel the exact same, I like What's there is then not there or what you're seeing is not necessarily to be believed There's something different on the next page Yeah, like this idea of it's there and then it's not and we're over here then we're over there
The settings are very different, right? when you look at the different sides of the wall, over here it's like this and over here it's completely different. Like you turn the page and it's completely different story.
Netta (21:55)
Yes, and I think maybe also because the settings are so stylized. when she goes to the watchmaker guy who is, how would you describe him? A broker of sorts. She goes to him to try and find, yes.
Steph (22:01)
Mm-hmm.
broker of sorts. Yeah. Of intelligence. Yeah.
Netta (22:09)
Yeah, she goes to him to find a contact in East Berlin. it's all green and yellow, but still dark. And it's these, I don't know, would it be like art deco type lines that are going on? maybe it's because you have these different sets or you have these different.
Steph (22:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Netta (22:29)
arenas or these different locations where things are taking place and each of them has such a distinct identity.
Steph (22:37)
Yeah, very much so.
Netta (22:39)
and you're kind of flipping between them. And that is part of why, it feels like a unified world, like it's all one book, but each of these places or each of these arenas is has its own identity completely But it has a similar vibe. It all has a similar vibe.
Steph (22:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
like it all works together, but they're very, their own, the standalone ages, if you will.
Netta (23:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
What did you think of the fighting?
Steph (23:04)
Ooh, the fighting. Um, the fighting was good. I feel like. I don't know, I feel like.
What did you think of the fighting?
Netta (23:13)
⁓ I mean, I also thought it was very, I thought it was good. Especially for that, the kind of climactic fight sequence it's one shot or stitched together to look like one continuous shot. do you see them get more more bruised as you go? Just the makeup on that, I think it's.
Steph (23:29)
Mm-hmm.
Netta (23:30)
really impressive.
Steph (23:31)
Yeah.
Netta (23:32)
And you just see her getting beaten down. she is tired, the other guys tired. They're animals. it's just by sheer force of will that they can make it
Steph (23:34)
I know.
like messy she's they're tired
Netta (23:44)
a lot of movies. People don't get tired when they get stabbed. maybe they flinch, but then they go on fighting more or less as if they don't have a knife sticking out of them.
Steph (23:47)
Yes, I know.
Yeah, okay. So I think a few things. I'll say I'm two minds about it. I like the fact that as the fight progresses, I think they're trying to depict the injuries they have sustained and they are tired and this is how this now looks. It does make it less exciting as the fight goes on, as they're getting weary and just struggling, but also still good. that doesn't take away from it by any means.
So that is one of my thoughts of the fights. I like that they get fatigued and get tired and you can see that and it wears on them. I like that.
The other thing I think about the fights is like,
the idea seeing something new as an action fan is very exciting. And I feel like I didn't really see anything new, in terms of how the fighting took place or what that looked like. And it maybe wasn't like,
gritty enough.
Netta (24:42)
To me that they got tired made it more exciting I like that they basically got animalistic, that they they were reduced to just pure survival.
Steph (24:45)
yeah.
Yeah.
like, yeah.
Netta (24:54)
you know, they're tripping over their own feet she bumps into a door and gets knocked down from just herself. There's no, else is doing that to her because she's just so down, but the other guy is down too and in a similar state. So to me, to me, that was exciting to me. That was new, I guess.
Steph (24:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Netta (25:12)
And that one take is part of it. I mean, is that not new? The doing it as one long take?
Steph (25:19)
I'd have to think about it because I feel like.
I was processing they're trying to keep this as one perspective in one take, but you know it's not. I wasn't as wowed maybe by it.
the latest John Wick, One of the coolest fight scenes I've ever seen in my life. and this is John Wick 4, so they've had three John Wicks of completely revolutionizing action and giving you new things.
and they still did it in the fourth one with a one shot take. John Wick 4 does a one shot take that I've never seen the likes of in anything. this maybe is laying the groundwork and like flavors of those kinds of things happening in the future. And I just like, I don't know. I wasn't as like,
I thought the fighting was very good. Definitely had flavors of John Wick. you could see the influences there. the director was like attached to both projects. That makes perfect sense. It was very impressive. But guess for me in those like action movies, you're looking for those like cool kills like, oh, my God, I've never seen that before. I've never seen that before. That didn't happen.
Netta (26:14)
Right, yeah, yeah,
Steph (26:16)
I also very much enjoyed that you actually feel the weight of the fight with these people. but maybe they didn't capitalize on that. Like them being tired, they could have had some cool ways to kind of like out people. But it's like, no, guns, knives, getting hit in head with things. I did really like the scene, though, that she. ⁓
Netta (26:20)
Mm.
Mm.
Mmm.
Steph (26:34)
This is why maybe I like the first half a lot better. It was so promising when she goes and checks out the apartment of the, I can't think of his name, Gascon? Gascon? Anyway, and yeah, the dead spy and all the police come. That was more exciting to me as a fight scene when she's going through the apartment and figuring out how to use the things in her environment because she knows she's outnumbered. She knows she's outpowered.
Netta (26:42)
Mmm.
the dead spy.
Mmm.
Yes.
Steph (27:00)
and she doesn't want to get caught. That was more exciting and she gets out with the yellow rope. That was, yeah, thinking about it, that was a much more exciting action sequence to me.
And maybe that's why I feel much more strongly about the first half than the second half. Yeah. Hmm. What are we thinking about also interesting scenes? Let's talk about the music.
Netta (27:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.
⁓
Steph (27:23)
I was obsessed. This music is incredible. I actually think like at the end, at the end of it, Sean asked if I liked the movie and I said, I feel like I liked the music better than the movie, so.
Netta (27:35)
Yeah!
Steph (27:36)
And I feel like that's not good. that's not good when the music kind of outshines in some ways. But I feel like at one point I wrote down, it's like an 80s techno odyssey. the sampling. actually made a tongue in cheek joke about sampling at one point. But the sampling, the soundtrack, it was so perfect. the opening song when he's running and you got that big bass and then
Netta (27:38)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Steph (27:59)
David Bowie and then the 99 Red Balloons and German was so clever Blue Monday and then George Michael father figure like it's just yeah that's the scene the that I really like I also KLSI Tuesday sorry I've just listed off the soundtrack but I loved it so much and all of those happen in the first half of the movie and then they're still good stuff
Netta (28:08)
Mm. Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Steph (28:21)
But what I loved so much about the first half of the movie more than the second is I love when movies are so clever and they did this, that the music is playing in the movie. You know what I mean? it's on the car radio, it's on the stereo, in the club.
Netta (28:30)
Yes,
And there was that one scene where it goes in and out, right? I think where the bad Russian is interrogating these poor teenagers or German, guess this bad German, I guess. A bad German officer is interrogating these poor German youths.
Steph (28:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, those guys! I know!
⁓
they're German. Yeah.
Yeah, he's like, dance. He
makes them dance.
Netta (28:57)
And it goes
like the way the sound goes, sometimes it's coming out of the stereo and sometimes it's that overwhelming cinematic music. And the way it goes back and forth, again, I think it's, to me, some of that is all about the pacing gets you to start and stop and be in and out of the action.
Steph (29:01)
Mm-hmm.
clever. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely. I think the music was used so, so, so well. So, so great. I feel like though there's something, the magic of it died for me in the second half of the movie. I don't know why.
Netta (29:21)
Yes. Yes.
when do you think it's switched for you?
Steph (29:31)
I definitely feel like I keep saying half because I do feel it was around the like hour, hour, 10 hour, 15 mark, so I'd have to look back and be like what was happening at that time. It might be like before definitely before they go over to get spyglass, maybe around then.
Netta (29:49)
Right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Steph (29:51)
things just I feel like there was like a tonal switch. And I like the tone of the first half, but it was more like candy, more like graphic novel stylized. And then the switch happened. were still things I liked a lot about the second half, but something tonally fell off and maybe it does have to do with the music. Yeah, I'm trying to think.
Netta (29:54)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Steph (30:10)
Yeah, I did say like the whole thing moves to music, but it's funny because I stopped taking notes about the music around halfway through.
Yeah. And Tyler Bates, as a composer who I love, also composed the music. and yeah, one of my last notes is, was this more about the music than the story? But I do love the story. I love the there's a list of spies and it's been stolen. We have to get it back. I love that story. But the music was very prominent for me.
Netta (30:21)
Hmm. Hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes. How did you feel about the whole Delphine storyline?
Steph (30:42)
I loved it so much. How did you feel? And then I have to tell you something funny that you won't even believe me about because it's so ridiculous. OK. Absolutely ridiculous. Not ridiculous. It's crazy. feel like I was so on point with this thought I had about this movie. OK, so watching the movie. We've never watched, I don't think a movie with Charlie Starrin in it before.
Netta (30:44)
Yes. ⁓ yeah. No, tell me. Tell me.
No, we watch Mad Max. Fury Road. I think that might be the only one.
Steph (31:03)
yeah. Yes. Correct.
Correct. But she's not like her typical self. Like, she's very different in that movie. But anyway. No, anyways, I love Charlize. I think she's just like this titan. She's like a bombshell. She's incredible. I love her. Big fan. And I it was funny, like early in the movie, after she meets James McAvoy's character and he follows her and he sneaks into her hotel room.
She like grabs them and she's like straddling them on the bed. And this is maybe typically in a movie when you would expect some sort of sexual tension to build between the two characters. And my immediate thought was like, I don't think so. I think she's too much. She is too much for this man who I also love. But the chemistry just isn't there. And then I had this thought to myself of like, who's good enough for Charlize? And then I was like, probably another woman.
Netta (31:40)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm. Yeah.
Steph (31:54)
probably another woman and then boom, like that's where it went and that was her lovin'
just in the movie. I was like, oh my God, this is crazy. I love it.
Netta (32:00)
You
Yes. And it was so, I mean, I think their dynamic was very much one where Charlize had maybe more of like a masculine role, or at least Charlize had more of a, the role of like the older, experienced.
Steph (32:12)
yes.
Yeah, she's like the experienced
the mentor, like. yeah, she's like confident. There was like one of my friends once said to me, she had like an alpha energy in that do and I was loving it.
Netta (32:21)
Yeah, a bit of a daddy, I would say, right? like...
Mmm.
Yes,
I thought that their dynamic made a lot of sense
I guess just like the the
I'm going to say a power dynamic. It's not exactly that it's more just like a maturity difference They're not exerting control or trying to exert control over each other in this. So I feel like the power dynamic is not quite the right word for it.
Steph (32:48)
Yeah. ⁓
Netta (32:55)
Delphine is like young, inexperienced, fresh, green, like, not no, no, really, like who what spy has headphones on and is unaware of their surroundings. Come on, girl.
Steph (32:57)
Fresh, new. Not very good at spying.
I know. Ugh.
Netta (33:10)
But here's the thing, I think that where you have really good chemistry, and it's not necessarily romantic chemistry, or sexual chemistry, even though it is here. Actually, I had this thought when we watched Mad Max with Charlize Theron and Mad Max.
Steph (33:23)
Mmm.
Netta (33:26)
which there is no romantic storyline, but there is a lot of chemistry there. Yes. Their chemistry and it's like, like, so what's going on there? I think it's about like a meeting of equals. I think this is where you get chemistry equals in some dimension, but I think what keeps what keeps it spicy is like a difference in some in some other dimension.
Steph (33:28)
No. Yes, remember we talked about that at length about like their their buddies.
Yes, yes.
Okay, go on.
Netta (33:50)
And so when you think about Charlize Theron and Delphine in this movie, the difference is clear.
But like, what's the meeting of equals? It's not just their gender, though I think that is part of it.
Steph (34:03)
No, they're spy.
think I was going to say like it's respect for like the world they live in. Like being spies, I
Netta (34:09)
Mmm.
But she doesn't have chemistry with James McAvoy. He's also a spy. He's much better than Delphine.
Steph (34:16)
I know, but he's,
I know, but he's, I think he's framed up to be like wild and rogue.
Netta (34:22)
So maybe it's that they both still have a kind of respect for the work that they do.
Steph (34:27)
Yeah, like old school respect. I think because James McAvoy, is kind of like the anti version. he's pretty loud. and the things he do is loud and the clothes he wears is loud. And he's very like, this is who I am. he's not being sleuthy, sneaky, sneaky. He kind of is. But on the back end, you don't see it. Not what he presents. Whereas I think both of them, Charlize and Delphine, they present this
Netta (34:28)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steph (34:48)
similar worldview about Spidum and what they're trying to do and what they're trying to achieve. And there's respect in that. Even though there's an experiential difference. they have the respect for the profession maybe.
Netta (34:54)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I wonder if this goes also to that difference between Charlie's and James McAvoy's characters, where James McAvoy's like, how do you know, you're on a good guy's teams? And how do you know who you're even really working for? How do know you've won? all of these lines are very blurred. And for Charlie's there, the lines are very clear. I mean,
Steph (35:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, like she's able to do this
triple agent situation. They're that clear. Yeah. Yeah.
Netta (35:25)
Exactly. She knows who she's working for, even though
it's a very, her lines are even more blurred than his. maybe this is her connection with Delphine is loyalty. It's another kind of manifestation of this, of a moral clarity that both she and Delphine have, maybe.
Steph (35:31)
Maybe...
for loyalty. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah,
think, yeah, it's about that. because even Delphine, she kind of has a freak out like this isn't what I signed up for. I don't know if I can do this. she's still there. She's showing up. She's being loyal to her country. And Charlize is able to do this triple agent nonsense because she's so loyal to like her home. And she says I want to go home. Where's James McVoy is kind of like.
Netta (36:02)
Mm, yeah.
Steph (36:05)
Yeah, I'm here. I'm doing this. Highest bidder, though. Help me out. I'll... Like, I still don't totally understand. what was he gonna do with the list? Was he going to sell it? Why did he kill Spyglass? I don't get it.
Netta (36:17)
No,
this is a bit of a weird, I think this is like a bit of a
an inconsistency in his character
On the one hand, he is...
amoral can't tell up from down, blah, blah, the way they put it, has kind of gone a bit wild. And her insight into him is that actually underneath that he's like, actually an excellent spy, totally in control. And you see that he is, he is an excellent spy and that he managed to spy on her very well.
Steph (36:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yes, he is.
Netta (36:45)
But you're kind of supposed to believe that like at his core, he is morally confused and he doesn't really know who he's been working for and what it's all for and blah, blah. But you don't, none of his actions show you that. His actions, like the reason that he went to the Germans was because he knew that Charlize was actually working for the Americans.
Steph (36:55)
Hmm.
No!
Netta (37:07)
Or he thinks that or he thinks that she's satchel, I guess, and is working for that. He doesn't know she's a triple agent. He thinks she's the double agent. he sets spyglass to be killed in order so that he doesn't fall into her hands. Anyways, but this this is he is acting in the best interest of
Steph (37:08)
Hmm.
I think he does. Yeah. He thinks.
Netta (37:26)
England, like he is, he is doing this in order to fulfill his mission of making sure that that list gets across the border safely to MI6 and to make sure that this double or triple agent doesn't get away with the asset of Spyglass, of this guy who has the list memorized. So his, his actions show him to be
Steph (37:27)
Mm-hmm.
Netta (37:48)
very straightforwardly acting as he should in this, you loyal whatever way. And the kind of wildness we are told is a cover for actually this very calm or I don't know about calm, but very in control, level headed or clear sighted, you know, masterful spy. But then we're also given this sort of monologue about how he
is morally confused and doesn't know what's going on. Yeah. Yeah.
Steph (38:19)
So this is what's weird to me is because when I googled this the internet was telling me that
He killed spyglass because he didn't want somebody else with the list running around. He wanted to be the only one with the list so he could sell it I Don't know if I believe that I Don't think so. He looked like he was sneaking away in the night at the end there, but the other okay, so a few things
Netta (38:31)
Do we have any indication of that?
Because he, because
Spike, because he, I mean, I don't know why he killed Dolphine now that I think about it. ⁓
Steph (38:43)
Okay, so I was just gonna say, okay, Neda, let's go
with what you just said and now I'm gonna throw things at you and let's work through it. Okay, one, he gets the list like decently early in the movie, he recovers it and he calls to say, I got the list back. Like we learned that.
So why not take it in? what are you doing? Why not take in Charlize at the same time? Why not take it in? And then everyone will know that she is satchel. And then, you know what I mean? That's weird. But he like, continues down the road of the story. And then, and then, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. And then when they're looking to get Spyglass across the border,
Netta (39:05)
Yeah, right.
Right.
Right, why, yeah, go on. No, go on, go on, go on, go on.
Steph (39:25)
If he didn't, I got it for second about, if he thinks Charlize is satchel and he doesn't want spyglass in the wrong hands, then don't split up. Take spyglass with you.
Netta (39:35)
Right, give her the mom and daughter. Well, but he's set her up to be shot and he doesn't know about the thing to prevent, like her plan to prevent that happening. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I think now that, okay, now that you bring this up.
Steph (39:37)
Exactly. Exactly. I don't get it.
Which I loved, by the way, which was very fun.
But then why didn't he just
shoot her instead of Spyglass? And then why does he kill Delphine in a very rage? it was angry.
Netta (39:55)
Yeah, well.
Well, because she had those pictures of him Delphine thought that she knew that he was Satchel, the double agent, because of the picture she had taken with him talking to the Germans.
Steph (40:14)
Yes.
Netta (40:14)
which it turns out he was talking to them in order to arrange for Charlize's death because he thought she was satchel, which was correct. But my, just to go back, yes, this is what I am now kind of like, wait a second.
Steph (40:18)
Yeah.
If he just took the list in though...
He holds onto it, right? Why?
Netta (40:34)
Because what
he could have done, like he has this sort of secret passage that he seems very comfortable going under the wall, right? So why not take that under the wall, ensure it gets to MI6, go back to the east try either kill Spyglass because he's only a liability now because you have the list and it's or
Steph (40:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Netta (40:59)
you know, do your best to get them across because you said you would. Yeah.
Steph (41:02)
Yeah,
exactly. Why didn't why didn't he do that? Like once he had the list? I thought where's this movie going? Because and then when he didn't turn it in, it's like, oh, he didn't turn it in for a reason. But then we learned that he called to say he had the list. So I'm like, what the fuck? This is confusing to me. See, it all serves when you look really closely, it kind of starts to unravel.
Netta (41:09)
rate.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, that's... There's some plot holes in this. Intricately...
Steph (41:26)
No!
Which woven tail, which I
should say, like spy thrillerness on the whole, I think is very tricky. think you really nailed it at the beginning when you said it's either action spy thriller or like really cerebral. And I think it's hard to do well because when you throw twists in, there's so much room for plot holes because people
Netta (41:50)
Yeah.
Steph (41:52)
behave one way in the first half and then you're showing a different side of them in the second or is this consistent with their character or not? I understand this idea that James McAvoy he was a very good spy but his whole monologue about who knows what side you're on and this and that I thought that was a monologue him kind of being like screw this I'm going my own way.
Netta (42:09)
Right. But none of his actions, it turns out, indicate that he was going to try and sell it. But also, why didn't he take it? Why didn't he just take it?
Steph (42:15)
No, but the monologue was weird. Right away,
why didn't he like that was his mission. You got it. He's friends with the spy who was murdered in the beginning that never like what.
Netta (42:22)
Was it, is there the reason that-
Yeah, the reason that I am a bit hesitant to go too hard on this is because I am not totally confident that there's nothing there that explains it. and that I'm not just forgetting something.
Steph (42:39)
I know,
I know.
Netta (42:42)
but yes, I, I think this, I think this is a plot hole.
Steph (42:45)
their desire to straddle the line of like who is satchel and is she a triple agent? Which was actually never a question posed, which would have been more exciting. I think left room for some plot holes, but no, I was going say, but no movie is perfect, but incorrect because we have watched several movies which we have said are perfect. But spy movies. Yeah, spy movies. Very, very, very hard.
Netta (42:56)
Yeah.
I think there's been a few, but very, very few.
Steph (43:07)
plot holes for sure in any movie if you look hard enough.
Netta (43:10)
But you know, if we compare this to Black Bag, which we also, like the issue there was also that it was trying to combine two different types of one is much more successful at doing so. I think I feel confident in saying that. If only because of the vibes and the style on this.
Steph (43:30)
Vibes!
Netta (43:31)
The vibes on this movie, like just the style of it, the feel of it, yes, James McAvoy's character, there's some plot holes there, there's some character holes there, but the vibe of his whole character is very consistent. And so it feels like it takes a little bit, like it does take a bit of scraping, not much, like you said at the beginning, but does take a bit of scraping to get to like, wait, no, this isn't quite, this doesn't quite add up.
Steph (43:45)
Yes, very fun.
Mm-hmm.
Netta (43:57)
But like, I just feel like the whole, it does feel so unified and so complete as a movie because of the stylistic parts of it, maybe because of the music, because of like the pacing and the propulsion and the blah, that like, yeah, it doesn't hit you immediately,
Steph (43:58)
Yeah.
I know I wondered...
Netta (44:18)
Or maybe it
hit you immediately. just didn't hit me immediately.
Steph (44:22)
Maybe I
did wonder if this would be the type of movie that like I appreciated more a couple days later or if I watched it again I don't know you've seen it twice you seem to appreciate it more than myself. So maybe if I watched it again
Netta (44:34)
Maybe because I know the plot twist already.
Steph (44:37)
I was just thinking as you were talking, you know how there's some movies that they show you the plot twist at the beginning. The twist isn't the twist, it's the story of how that twist unfolds and some movies save the plot to us till the end. I think this is actually a movie, as we said, that actually would have benefited from us knowing from the beginning.
the whole
Netta (44:56)
Yeah.
Steph (44:56)
situation. I think you I was talking about James McAvoy's interesting because it made me think about this other layer of like, I think a fun twist or how the stories weaved and how it would make use of that interrogation is if we see him with her as a very competent spy. He's a little like he has some irregularities and he does things a different way, but he's super competent. But because of how he presents, maybe MI6 and the agents and he thinks he's a lost cause and he's wild and he's unreliable.
And so we see her in the interrogation frame him that way. So it makes him look more like he could be the double agent, but in realistically, we see him be this excellent spy. And like that could have been more exciting as like a now we're seeing her weave this tale. why is she weaving this tale?
Netta (45:32)
Right.
for there to be an actual difference between what we're seeing and what she's telling them for there to be a bigger gap.
Steph (45:42)
Yeah. And setting him up.
Yeah. And setting him up more as a fall guy.
Netta (45:49)
Yeah. I mean, I guess as it is, what it does is like we're not aware that there's anything to wonder about so much, which I think is an interesting thing to try. But I think the effect that you want to have with that is for then when there is a twist for it to hit you really hard, for it to hit you harder.
Steph (45:58)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Netta (46:11)
because it's not like, you're not trying to figure anything out. You don't think there's anything necessarily to figure out beyond, you know, the kind of surface level story that's being told. But it seems like here instead it mostly, in some cases resulted in confusion or in my case, again, I don't remember how I thought about it the first time I saw this, but in my case, it was just kind of like acute, like fun.
Steph (46:16)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yes.
Netta (46:36)
It's got like, okay, cool. Turns out she's a triple agent.
Steph (46:39)
I was gonna say too, do you think I think this I think the reveal the end happened too fast both reveals like back-to-back this idea like she's satchel and she's got this Burnett wig and she's with the Russians now within it was like a three minute period that like who? By her as satchel. no, her as an American. It was too quick It was like boom boom and I think they lost something there
Netta (46:59)
Mm.
It's like the twist happens in the epilogue. It's like the story is over and the twist is kind of like happening. It's not an afterthought, but it's kind of happening in...
Steph (47:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Netta (47:13)
kind of as an added attachment I guess. this is where for me, when we talk about the movie being tight or not, I think where the twist, that reveal or the twist happening, maybe this is where it kind of feels a bit more loose. Like it's not like the twist is revealed in like,
Steph (47:16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Netta (47:34)
in the thick of the action. It's revealed at the end of an epilogue.
Steph (47:38)
Sometimes that's the best.
But sometimes those are you think the movie's done and then it's like, there's a few movies like that. I will not say them because then maybe. ⁓
Netta (47:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, don't tell me. Maybe I'll choose them.
Steph (47:52)
So yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Any? No? Okay. What do you feel like watching next?
Netta (47:53)
Okay. Okay.
Netta (48:13)
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